What would you buy instead of a 12k ?

Forums General Discussion What would you buy instead of a 12k ?

  • Post
    John Brawley
    Moderator

    This 10k price point is the first time BMD has placed such a premium price on their cameras and I’m wondering how compelling it is ?

    I have been talking to lots of different users recently and I was surprised at how
    Many G2s are out there being used away from the main markets. Smaller towns where there isn’t a large rental house, the G2s seem to be a popular rental item.

    I’d always thought of G2s as an owners camera so it’s mildly intriguing to me that it seems like it has been infiltrating the dry hire rental market.

    I wonder if the 12K will be the same ?

    JB

Viewing 15 replies - 1 through 15 (of 26 total)
  • Replies
    Rich H
    Keymaster

    As an individual I can’t see myself personally paying $10k for a camera. However, one of the main things I saw mentioned about this the 12k URSA is its abilities to be used for large scale video monitors. Billboards, stadiums, LED walls.

    If it were coming out of my pocket, stick with the affordable 4k or 6k pockets even the higher-end URSA’s.

    If it were coming out of someone else’s pocket, then yeah, give me the ability to shoot 12k for $10k

    • This reply was modified 3 months ago by Rich H.
    KevinW
    Participant

    I am really trying to figure out if I should go with the Canon C300m3 or the BMD. I love so much about both. If BMD had continuous autofocus and stabilization, my decision would be made. Those things plus the lightweight of the Canon keep this a very close call for me. Perhaps when I see more footage of the Ursa, it will change my mind. Love what I’ve seen, so far.

    eralphia3
    Participant

    I would love to have a 6k full frame BMD camera with internal ND and lightweight (c200b weight would be fine) more cube-shaped cinema camera style. Something around $8k would be a price I would pay. I would be fine with a Braw only camera as well.

    I would probably pay 10k if it had a stop or more DR (16+) and Dual iso like the pocket cameras.

    If they are trying to stick with s35. Maybe a sensor size that’s bigger than standard s35. And definitely have more DR and just be a lot lighter and compact compared to the current UMP.

    Rich H
    Keymaster

    I loved the Micro. Would love to see a new Micro with 4k/6k/8k…whatever K. I own all the necessary accessories that it would be great if I could transfer some of them to a small setup. I like the Pocket, but the shape of that little thing was great.

    Bruce Allen
    Participant

    Oh wow, it’s John Brawley asking questions! The Great looked amazing BTW – congrats, rockstar!

    I can say the 12K decimated my interest in the RED KOMODO, Canon R5 and Sony a7s3 and FX9. A used Alexa or Canon C300 mk3 or a Panasonic S1H if heavily discounted are still interesting to me vs the 12K… but to be honest after that announcement I’m sitting tight and not buying ANYTHING!

    I’m not fully the 12K’s target market – I’m a director who does promos and commercials and supervises VFX so I mostly work with DPs who own or rent. My recent jobs were all Alexa Mini or LF, along with C300 mk2 for an indie series that got into Slamdance, plus of course DJI drones and a bit of RED.

    I was considering upgrading my personal camera (I do own an a7r2 and Fuji X-T3 for personal / scouting / proof of concept stuff) and was looking to go a little higher-end, but after the 12K announcement, the R5, a7s3 and KOMODO didn’t look so hot – so I decided to hold onto my money during the pandemic. Thank you Blackmagic! Also it gives me a buffer to pay my DP friends who have good cameras and presumably need work!

    So personally this 12K solidified me in “wait and see” mode. Maybe the perfect job will come along that is a no-brainer to buy the 12K for. I also hold out hope for a more “pro” smaller one – the current pocket one with the large LCD that you can’t see in daylight and odd ergonomics doesn’t work for me. I wish Blackmagic would release their Alexa Mini equivalent next. The Alexa Mini was smaller, cheaper, and shot 4:3 anamorphic and 200fps full frame 16×9 – an upgrade over the big one! Let’s see the BM version.

    I guess the biggest problem for me with buying the 12K is you can rent an Alexa Mini is $500 for the weekend on Sharegrid in Los Angeles – $12000 is 24 weekends of Alexa Mini playtime I’d be giving up. The 12K would really have to beat the Mini – need to test!

    I do know many friends with the 4.6K who are very loyal to it. It’s a diverse group – a motion graphics art director who shoots awesome elements (although I did lend her my Fuji X-T3 during the pandemic because the fixed pattern noise was an issue for a shoot), a producer who used it for pickup shots on a film that got into Sundance – eg people who need a good quality camera around but don’t want to pay an insane amount. If a 12K popped up on the used market for $8K and one of my friends said “wanna split one?” I’d be tempted. There’s so much right on the 12K from the image to the media recording choices to the fact that you can actually playback the files on a laptop! Also I like the fact that it has genlock, proper low latency HD-SDI (well, I hope it’s low latency!) because I’m playing around with virtual set stuff and DSLRs suck for that.

    So yes, I think the 12K just shot up to displace RED, Sony, Canon, etc as “camera I’m most likely to work with soon” – Alexa is still above until I’ve tested… but well done Blackmagic!

    Also seriously well done Blackmagic for working with John – footage looked great but also all of the answers on DVXuser, REDuser etc have been so straightforward and spin-free. High five!

    Bruce Allen
    http://www.bruceallen.tv (oh boy, I need to update my website!)

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 4 weeks ago by Bruce Allen.
    focusplay
    Participant

    Honestly, nothing else under 10K beats out the Ursa 12K in terms of future proofing and “bang for your buck”. With that said, if the sub 10K digital 65mm market heats up I’d have to put my money in that direction. With 12K now established a possibility for things like virtual production and VFX I think Blackmagic could fortify what Ursa 12K brings to the table by leaning into those workflows. It would be interesting to see them offer deep metadata and telemetry capabilities. For example, enabling the camera to record gyroscope data and letting Resolve use that information to stabilize in post. If they had some way of enabling face detection that would write metadata that allowed Resolve users to categorize shots based on recognized faces. At this point cameras are basically specialized computers. It would be worthwhile in my opinion to see Blackmagic leverage that idea to offer smarter tools rather than more Ks.

    Ghana Filmmaker
    Participant

    I’m those torn between Canon
    C300MK3 and the BMD12k. BRAW is in my opinion one of the best codecs ever made. After using the Ursa Pro G1 on so many shoots and the C300MK2 on others, it’s a tough tough decision. CMK3 is a turnkey no bull camera, in many ways so is the BMD12k. Both have great image quality (but the BMD is way ahead in that picture quality) that can be used for any type of shoot. Auto focus, et al still don’t beat 12K RGB. Full color gamut.

    John Brawley
    Moderator

    I would love to have a 6k full frame BMD camera with internal ND and lightweight
    ……

    If they are trying to stick with s35. Maybe a sensor size that’s bigger than standard s35. And definitely have more DR and just be a lot lighter and compact compared to the current UMP.

    What I hear time and time again from BMD.

    FF sensors are expensive.
    The yield is also very difficult. It means they throw away more sensors than those that pass QC. Making the cost even more expensive.

    I’m pretty sure I saw the RED guys saying they throw away something like 70% of their monstro sensors.

    FF is hard. And it’s expensive.

    Until that can change I don’t think we’ll see a FF camera from them.

    JB

    Bruce Allen
    Participant

    What I hear time and time again from BMD.

    FF sensors are expensive.
    The yield is also very difficult. It means they throw away more sensors than those that pass QC. Making the cost even more expensive.

    I’m pretty sure I saw the RED guys saying they throw away something like 70% of their monstro sensors.

    FF is hard. And it’s expensive.

    Until that can change I don’t think we’ll see a FF camera from them.

    JB

    Duly noted! Thank you for the great info, John!

    I wonder how expensive it would be to make a version where (like Arri did) they keep the width the same but offer a taller sensor for a bit more money? I’m nervous to drop $10K but would be weirdly less nervous to pay $12-14K for a camera with 18mm of sensor height instead of 14mm (eg 12K x 8K) so you can put an anamorphic lens on it and get the full picture! Blackmagic offer 4x models of Video Assist monitors and just released a new sub-variant of the Atem Mini Pro with just 1 feature change so they seem cool with releasing many subtly-different versions of things! Good wide anamorphics are rare and it sucks to crop in. I honestly believe it’s one of the many reasons the Alexa Mini was a hit. Maybe I’m crazy and I’m the only one excited… or maybe the anamorphic folks need to form an unholy alliance with the people shooting 1×1 video and that newfangled 4:5 social ratio and ask for it 🙂

    That said, I’m thinking back on the last 3x larger shoots I was on and it would have helped every time.

    This one I VFX supervised we shot spherical Alexa LF open gate (1.43 aspect ratio) and scope matted but some social teaser pieces used the extra vertical picture area. The extra height also made 3D tracking the floor for the title shot a breeze too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25U11a2HgcI

    The next multi-promo job I co-directed (not out yet, for a different client I can’t name) was again open gate on the Alexa LF on spherical for multiple reasons:
    Promo 1 – we needed post stabilization / flexibility in blending two camera moves
    Promo 2 – we wanted to offer the client a frame that worked for both 16×9 and a 1×1 delivery, so we just popped up dual custom frames and they were delighted. I agree it’s tough no matter what to make two good frames with one camera, but when you have limited time with talent and you can make a frame work for both – and have a smart client who understands the limitations and picks one to prioritize… sweet! It’s so much better than having to center extract from 16×9.

    After those two spherical jobs, I got to co-direct one last promo before the pandemic hit on Alexa Mini with Kowas. We didn’t like the widest Kowa too much. If the BM 12K had existed and the DP had suggested we use it, I’d have been pretty tempted to say “ah man, does that mean we’ll be cropped in and therefore forced to spend more time on the wider lenses which aren’t our favorite? That sucks… you sure we can’t tempt you with an Alexa Mini, buddy?”

    So yeah, if I were buying a BM camera and they had a slightly fancier version with a taller sensor, I’d 100% go for that. Since the camera is expensive, it needs to be great on multiple jobs for years to pay for itself, and I bet there are jobs with anamorphic lenses and jobs with the need to deliver multiple aspect ratios in the future.

    Bruce Allen
    http://www.bruceallen.tv

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 4 weeks ago by Bruce Allen.
    punkduck66
    Participant

    Personally my work and workflow doesn’t need a 12K. For my day to day corporate and charity promo work my Pocket 4K is enough. I would like a second as B cam but my BMCC 2.5K does ok for now when shooting in RAW (I just wish the files were smaller!). I would love to own a UMP G2 for my fiction work as I currently use camera ops who have one.

    What excites me most about the 12k is what it means for the UMP G3 or the Pocket 4k/6K G2 when the new technology and Gen 5 colour science filter down. It’s exciting to see Blackmagic pushing the boundaries and innovating with the new sensor. No matter what may be said in public, I am sure the “big brand” camera manufacturers are taking notice of the 12k.

    Long may Blackmagic continue disrupting the status quo and being the rebel in the corner 🙂

    Oyvind Fiksdal
    Participant

    I would love to have a 6k full frame BMD camera with internal ND and lightweight
    ……

    If they are trying to stick with s35. Maybe a sensor size that’s bigger than standard s35. And definitely have more DR and just be a lot lighter and compact compared to the current UMP.

    What I hear time and time again from BMD.

    FF sensors are expensive.
    The yield is also very difficult. It means they throw away more sensors than those that pass QC. Making the cost even more expensive.

    I’m pretty sure I saw the RED guys saying they throw away something like 70% of their monstro sensors.

    FF is hard. And it’s expensive.

    Until that can change I don’t think we’ll see a FF camera from them.

    JB

    And it’s possible to get longer focal length with lighter lenses on a smaller sensor, which can be beneficial. Besides, emulating FF feel and look is not that hard with a s35 sensor and the right lens.

    8k+ in pocket format with a versatile lens mount is a more intriguing IMO. Just finished shooting 2day shot with a couple of URSA’s and pocket… I spend more time running around with the pocket while the URSAs stood on their tripods… Not saying you can’t shoot handheld with the G2, but you know what I mean.

    Justin Fletcher
    Participant

    I was looking to pickup a Panasonic S1H since the Canon R5 and Sony a7sIII are not the unicorn cameras that were rumored, but the new Blackmagic 12k is very appealing to me. It would be a significant financial purchase, but one I am willing to make if Blackmagic increases the warranty from one year to two years, like RED cameras, or if Blackmagic offers the ability to purchase an extended warranty for the 12k camera. I know most manufacturers only offer a one year warranty, but from my peripheral following of Blackmagic cameras, Blackmagic seems to have had some quality control issues in the past. It is my understanding that most things on the Ursa 4.6k can be repaired, but the sensor cannot be replaced. This is my biggest concern with the 12k camera– a faulty sensor at 13 months resulting in a $10,000 brick. So, a two year warranty, or the ability to purchase an extended warranty, or confirmation that all components are repairable, including the sensor, and the Blackmagic 12k will be my next camera.

    Baynes
    Participant

    I was looking to pickup a Panasonic S1H since the Canon R5 and Sony a7sIII are the unicorn cameras that were rumored, but the new Blackmagic 12k is very appealing to me. It would be a significant financial purchase, but one I am willing to make if Blackmagic increases the warranty from one year to two years, like RED cameras, or if Blackmagic offers the ability to purchase an extended warranty for the 12k camera. I know most manufacturers only offer a one year warranty, but from my peripheral following of Blackmagic cameras, Blackmagic seems to have had some quality control issues in the past. It is my understanding that most things on the Ursa 4.6k can be repaired, but the sensor cannot be replaced. This is my biggest concern with the 12k camera– a faulty sensor at 13 months resulting in a $10,000 brick. So, a two year warranty, or the ability to purchase an extended warranty, or confirmation that all components are repairable, including the sensor, and the Blackmagic 12k will be my next camera.

    Yea I heard of the quality issues that’s why I never invested in a Blackmagic camera. Now don’t get me wrong, I love the image their cameras make and I’ve been super interested in getting one, but the stories I heard from day one owners were discouraging.

    However in this case, this is the first time I made a decision to purchase a camera, doesn’t matter which brand, without even thinking about it. It had to do with the colors and the movement, the 12K is just the icing. So I plunked down the money on the 12K and a kit for it because I didn’t want to decide later down the line that I wanted the camera and couldn’t get it due to it being back ordered.

    I’m honestly excited and anticipating to shoot some small films and sketches with it once it get in my hands. These will be tests and practice for a series that I’m working on, which we were going to rent Alexa’s, but now I’m confident that we can use the 12K with some rented Masterbuilt lenses. Money saved and still able to obtain super quality!

    John Brawley
    Moderator

    I was looking to pickup a Panasonic S1H since the Canon R5 and Sony a7sIII are the unicorn cameras that were rumored, but the new Blackmagic 12k is very appealing to me. It would be a significant financial purchase, but one I am willing to make if Blackmagic increases the warranty from one year to two years, like RED cameras, or if Blackmagic offers the ability to purchase an extended warranty for the 12k camera. I know most manufacturers only offer a one year warranty, but from my peripheral following of Blackmagic cameras, Blackmagic seems to have had some quality control issues in the past. It is my understanding that most things on the Ursa 4.6k can be repaired, but the sensor cannot be replaced. This is my biggest concern with the 12k camera– a faulty sensor at 13 months resulting in a $10,000 brick. So, a two year warranty, or the ability to purchase an extended warranty, or confirmation that all components are repairable, including the sensor, and the Blackmagic 12k will be my next camera.

    I agree with you. I think as they make more expensive bodies there comes with that an expectation of greater support.

    I personally wish they would impose an AppleCare style subscription model. Make it 3 years. DJI also have something similar.

    JB

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 3 weeks ago by John Brawley.
    Taikonaut
    Participant

    As an owner camera it has to come with it a degree of practicality, future proof, guarantee support from BMD for 5yrs including firmware updates and not be left out of the latest features.

    What would I buy instead of this 12k behemoth would be a RED Komodo and a Canon R5 with Tilta fan, any day and twice on Sunday.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 3 weeks ago by Taikonaut.
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